MS Stem Cell treatment Germany
- Thread starter dschroed
- Start date
Several members have been to X-cell, but to date no one has posted any positive results. If anyone has been there that sees this and had a successful treatment, it would be nice to hear from you. There is also a pilot program for MS that sounds very promising. Treatment is in Mexico. If you are at all interested, let me know and I will send you the information. They are only accepting candidates who have certain diseases, but MS is one of them. This is an American company forced to do treatment in Mexico.
Has there been negative results or any feedback at all? Mexico is not really a safe place right now and I was told by an oncologist that a stem cell is a stem cell, no matter how it is derived. I need to do extensive research before I make a decision of course to understand the process. I did speak to an MS patient that went to x-cell 6 months ago and had extremely positive results but he is the only one I could find who would talk about it so far. Thank you for your reply and I would like information to compare and contrast. I may choose that option if it proves positive. I have heard Costa Rica and China are also good to look into. Any thoughts there?
There have been a couple of negative comments about some personnel there with the exception of Dr. Etou whom everyone seems to like a lot, but mostly just no results as I mentioned. Dr. Fabio Solano from ICM in Costa Rica will be hosting this month's Ask the Doctor. This would be a good opportunity to ask him any questions you might have. You can submit questions to my e-mail. Click on members list, then B, then Barbara. There is definitely some negative press about Mexico right now, but I have always been of the mind that I could get conked over the head right here in Denver too. Most treatments are a quick in and out and you do not spend the night in Mexico. Not all Mexican clinics are in Tijuana either so keep that in mind. Dr. Feinerman treats in Peru with Dr. Paino at a very modern hospital so you might want to check with him too. As for China, unless they could offer a lot of successful treatment testimonials with patients I could contact on my own, that is a very difficult trip for most anyone from the U.S. If you are up to it, by all means contact them. Keep in mind too that some people seem to get more out of treatments than others. There is no guarantee as I am sure you are very much aware.
As for your oncologist, that is a very strange comment. It is not like getting your car filled at the gas station. The delivery method is very important for one thing. Some treatments can be done in a matter of hours, while others require that your cells be cultured for days. Dr. Young who participates in this forum from time to time holds a patent on a certain kind of stem cell he discovered, so no, all cells are not the same. This might be a good time to ask Dr. Young to give us a Stem Cell lesson. He is a fascinating researcher. I will ask him to comment for us.
This brings me back to my usual rant of why are we being subjected to traveling all over the world trying to get treatment that should be available in our own home towns. Blast your legislators with the question. Besides what it is costing us in difficulty traveling to foreign countries, the U.S., Canada, England, Australia, etc. are losing out economically.
As for your oncologist, that is a very strange comment. It is not like getting your car filled at the gas station. The delivery method is very important for one thing. Some treatments can be done in a matter of hours, while others require that your cells be cultured for days. Dr. Young who participates in this forum from time to time holds a patent on a certain kind of stem cell he discovered, so no, all cells are not the same. This might be a good time to ask Dr. Young to give us a Stem Cell lesson. He is a fascinating researcher. I will ask him to comment for us.
This brings me back to my usual rant of why are we being subjected to traveling all over the world trying to get treatment that should be available in our own home towns. Blast your legislators with the question. Besides what it is costing us in difficulty traveling to foreign countries, the U.S., Canada, England, Australia, etc. are losing out economically.
Dr. Young's reply to "a stem cell is a stem cell"
From dschroed:
"I was told by an oncologist that a stem cell is a stem cell, no matter how it is derived. I need to do extensive research before I make a decision of course to understand the process."
I want to thank Dr. Young for taking time from his ultra busy schedule to refute the comment that a stem cell is a stem cell. His reply will cause your brain to wither, but he has won the argument hands down I think you all will agree.
Dear Forum members,
Having spent over 30+ years studying adult stem cells, the oncologist's statement "... a stem cell is a stem cell, no matter how it is derived" is wrong.
There are many different varieties of stem cells and each one has a different function. The most differentiated "stem cells", also called progenitor cells or "-blast cells" are the immediate stem cells for differentiated tissue types, i.e., osteoblasts for bone, chondroblasts for cartilage, myoblasts for muscle, hepatoblasts for liver cells, pacreatoblasts for pancreas cells, neuroblasts for neurons, glioblasts for glial cells, keratinoblasts for skin cells, and the list goes on and on. For every differentiated cell type, there is a progenitor (-blast) cell for it.
As you develop from your embryonic through fetal stages there are three germ layer lineages formed: ectoderm, mesoderm, and endoderm. Each one of these germ layer lineages only forms tissues within their own distinct lineage. Moreover, there are stem cells for each one of these lineages, i.e., ectodermal stem cells, mesodermal stem cells, and endodermal stem cells.
Ectodermal lineage cells (and their stem cells) will only form cells belonging to the nervous system, such as your brain, spinal cord, neurons, glial cells, sensory nerve endings, ganglion cells, pituitary gland, hypothalamus, adrenal medulla, and cells belonging to the outer covering of your body, i.e., skin cells, hair cells, sweat gland cells, the enamel of your teeth, etc.
Mesodermal lineage cells (and their stem cells) will only form cells belonging to your muscle, bone, cartilage, connective tissue stroma (capsules, trabeculae, scar tissue, dermis, etc.), blood vessels, hematopoietic (blood) cells, lymphoid tissues, kidneys, ureters, urinary bladder, urethra, ovaries, testicles, adrenal cortex, spleen, etc.
And endodermal lineage cells (and their stem cells) will only form cells belonging to the parenchyma (actively functioning portion of the) liver, gall bladder, lung, stomach, small intestine, large intestine, rectum, pancreas (exocrine and endocrine), thyroid gland, parathyroid glands, etc.
During your development into an embryo there is the change of cell types from a single-cell called the ?zygote? to a solid ball of blastomeres to a blastocyst (a hollow ball of cells) that contain an inner cell mass (embryo proper), germ cells and the trophoblast (forming the placenta). There are two sets of stem cells given off during this transition as well. The inner cell mass will form pluripotent stem cells that will form every tissue type in the body except the germ cells (sperm and ova) and the placenta. The blastomeres will form totipotent stem cells that will form every cell type of the body, including germ cells and the placenta.
So the idea "... a stem cell is a stem cell, no matter how it is derived" is WRONG.
The identity of a particular stem cell depends on the following criteria. 1) What tissues the stem cells are isolated from and how the stem cells are isolated. 2) The cell surface markers the stem cells express. 3) Do the stem cells have the ability to self-renew themselves past a set biological clock (50-70 cell doublings in humans)? And 4) what tissues the cells will form. Those criteria dictate the identity of stem cell, i.e., progenitor (-blast) cells, ectodermal germ layer lineage stem cells, mesodermal germ layer lineage stem cells, endodermal germ layer lineage stem cells, pluripotent stem cells, and totipotent stem cells. Moreover, the above are just the adult-derived stem cells. Then you also have cells derived from the embryo (embryonic stem cells), and stem cells derived from cells floating in the amniotic fluid (i.e., aminiocytes).
In addition, to make matters a bit more confusing with respect to the adult stem cells, more than one stem cell type can exist next to another stem cell type. So isolating pure populations of stem cells can be a challenge.
I refer you to two published papers that discuss the adult stem cells in more detail, i.e., Young et al., Anatomical Record 276A 75-102, 2004 and Young and Black, Minerva Biotech 17:55-63, 2005. I have PDF's of the articles if you would like me to send them to you. You can make your request either to me or to the website and I will forward them to you.
Dr. Young
Know your model system and Tissue never lies - P.M. Johnston
Knowledge without an imagination is worthless - Albert Einstein
Adult stem cells do it better - H.E. Young
From dschroed:
"I was told by an oncologist that a stem cell is a stem cell, no matter how it is derived. I need to do extensive research before I make a decision of course to understand the process."
I want to thank Dr. Young for taking time from his ultra busy schedule to refute the comment that a stem cell is a stem cell. His reply will cause your brain to wither, but he has won the argument hands down I think you all will agree.
Dear Forum members,
Having spent over 30+ years studying adult stem cells, the oncologist's statement "... a stem cell is a stem cell, no matter how it is derived" is wrong.
There are many different varieties of stem cells and each one has a different function. The most differentiated "stem cells", also called progenitor cells or "-blast cells" are the immediate stem cells for differentiated tissue types, i.e., osteoblasts for bone, chondroblasts for cartilage, myoblasts for muscle, hepatoblasts for liver cells, pacreatoblasts for pancreas cells, neuroblasts for neurons, glioblasts for glial cells, keratinoblasts for skin cells, and the list goes on and on. For every differentiated cell type, there is a progenitor (-blast) cell for it.
As you develop from your embryonic through fetal stages there are three germ layer lineages formed: ectoderm, mesoderm, and endoderm. Each one of these germ layer lineages only forms tissues within their own distinct lineage. Moreover, there are stem cells for each one of these lineages, i.e., ectodermal stem cells, mesodermal stem cells, and endodermal stem cells.
Ectodermal lineage cells (and their stem cells) will only form cells belonging to the nervous system, such as your brain, spinal cord, neurons, glial cells, sensory nerve endings, ganglion cells, pituitary gland, hypothalamus, adrenal medulla, and cells belonging to the outer covering of your body, i.e., skin cells, hair cells, sweat gland cells, the enamel of your teeth, etc.
Mesodermal lineage cells (and their stem cells) will only form cells belonging to your muscle, bone, cartilage, connective tissue stroma (capsules, trabeculae, scar tissue, dermis, etc.), blood vessels, hematopoietic (blood) cells, lymphoid tissues, kidneys, ureters, urinary bladder, urethra, ovaries, testicles, adrenal cortex, spleen, etc.
And endodermal lineage cells (and their stem cells) will only form cells belonging to the parenchyma (actively functioning portion of the) liver, gall bladder, lung, stomach, small intestine, large intestine, rectum, pancreas (exocrine and endocrine), thyroid gland, parathyroid glands, etc.
During your development into an embryo there is the change of cell types from a single-cell called the ?zygote? to a solid ball of blastomeres to a blastocyst (a hollow ball of cells) that contain an inner cell mass (embryo proper), germ cells and the trophoblast (forming the placenta). There are two sets of stem cells given off during this transition as well. The inner cell mass will form pluripotent stem cells that will form every tissue type in the body except the germ cells (sperm and ova) and the placenta. The blastomeres will form totipotent stem cells that will form every cell type of the body, including germ cells and the placenta.
So the idea "... a stem cell is a stem cell, no matter how it is derived" is WRONG.
The identity of a particular stem cell depends on the following criteria. 1) What tissues the stem cells are isolated from and how the stem cells are isolated. 2) The cell surface markers the stem cells express. 3) Do the stem cells have the ability to self-renew themselves past a set biological clock (50-70 cell doublings in humans)? And 4) what tissues the cells will form. Those criteria dictate the identity of stem cell, i.e., progenitor (-blast) cells, ectodermal germ layer lineage stem cells, mesodermal germ layer lineage stem cells, endodermal germ layer lineage stem cells, pluripotent stem cells, and totipotent stem cells. Moreover, the above are just the adult-derived stem cells. Then you also have cells derived from the embryo (embryonic stem cells), and stem cells derived from cells floating in the amniotic fluid (i.e., aminiocytes).
In addition, to make matters a bit more confusing with respect to the adult stem cells, more than one stem cell type can exist next to another stem cell type. So isolating pure populations of stem cells can be a challenge.
I refer you to two published papers that discuss the adult stem cells in more detail, i.e., Young et al., Anatomical Record 276A 75-102, 2004 and Young and Black, Minerva Biotech 17:55-63, 2005. I have PDF's of the articles if you would like me to send them to you. You can make your request either to me or to the website and I will forward them to you.
Dr. Young
Know your model system and Tissue never lies - P.M. Johnston
Knowledge without an imagination is worthless - Albert Einstein
Adult stem cells do it better - H.E. Young
Barbara,
I appreciate the information but I must clarily what I was told. I did nor hear that directly from the oncologist but from his wife. I apologize for saying he told me that. I have not spoken to him directly yet but he is the first US doctor I know of I can talk to that has a postive view of stem cells and their potential. My neuorologist want statistics and study results.
I really appreciate the information you have posted so I have a starting point now. I do plan to speak to the oncologist as well as anyone with a knowledge of stem cells directly in the near future as I plan to undergo stem cell treatment in some shape or form. I refuse to wait for the US to dedcide this is right and can help my condition ony to find out I waited too long. It has already ruined my life in my opinion and I plan to put a stop to it. I am greatful for forums like this where I can become somewhat educated and find a therapy that is right for me.
I appreciate the information but I must clarily what I was told. I did nor hear that directly from the oncologist but from his wife. I apologize for saying he told me that. I have not spoken to him directly yet but he is the first US doctor I know of I can talk to that has a postive view of stem cells and their potential. My neuorologist want statistics and study results.
I really appreciate the information you have posted so I have a starting point now. I do plan to speak to the oncologist as well as anyone with a knowledge of stem cells directly in the near future as I plan to undergo stem cell treatment in some shape or form. I refuse to wait for the US to dedcide this is right and can help my condition ony to find out I waited too long. It has already ruined my life in my opinion and I plan to put a stop to it. I am greatful for forums like this where I can become somewhat educated and find a therapy that is right for me.
dschroed - I am glad it was the oncologist's wife! Yes, it is nice to have a doctor you can talk to that doesn't make you feel like you are doing all the wrong things. You sound like you are making every effort to find the treatment that is best for you. I wish you all the best.
Pink7 - Can you tell us what the children were treated for at X-cell? Did they get results after one treatment or did they require more than one treatment? I believe they are only doing autologous treatments at this time. If you have any more information, please post for us. Dr. Etou from there was gracious enough to host one of our Ask the Doctor forums. I have heard nothing but good things about her, however, their sales rep in the states said they do not wish to participate on this forum so we really don't get much information except for the few members that have been there. I believe it requires about a one week stay in Germany for treatment, but again, I am not certain in every case.
Pink7 - Can you tell us what the children were treated for at X-cell? Did they get results after one treatment or did they require more than one treatment? I believe they are only doing autologous treatments at this time. If you have any more information, please post for us. Dr. Etou from there was gracious enough to host one of our Ask the Doctor forums. I have heard nothing but good things about her, however, their sales rep in the states said they do not wish to participate on this forum so we really don't get much information except for the few members that have been there. I believe it requires about a one week stay in Germany for treatment, but again, I am not certain in every case.
Barbara,
I have been told it is a 1 week stay and yes it is autologous treatments they offer. I have spoken to a person who went there and his results were outstanding, but that is just 1.
The study at Northwestern University was done with autologous as well as chemotherapy, I believe, and from what I have read, those results were good too. The theory with the chemo is to "reset" the immune system to halt the attacks.
pink7,
Thank you for your input. Can you clarify what the children were treated for?
I have been told it is a 1 week stay and yes it is autologous treatments they offer. I have spoken to a person who went there and his results were outstanding, but that is just 1.
The study at Northwestern University was done with autologous as well as chemotherapy, I believe, and from what I have read, those results were good too. The theory with the chemo is to "reset" the immune system to halt the attacks.
pink7,
Thank you for your input. Can you clarify what the children were treated for?
Stem cell treatment at Xcell
The children have neurological conditions and were treated with autologous cells. Both went for single treatment only. There has been positive changes which according to them may need future follow up treatment if they so desire.
They had bone marrow done on first day and then the cells were put back on the 3rd day. There were no probelms with the treatment.
I hope it is helpful.
The children have neurological conditions and were treated with autologous cells. Both went for single treatment only. There has been positive changes which according to them may need future follow up treatment if they so desire.
They had bone marrow done on first day and then the cells were put back on the 3rd day. There were no probelms with the treatment.
I hope it is helpful.
I really do not know of too many other companies doing that type of treatment. I started searching and found the X-cell. The cost of the procedure is a little more affordable if I do this short term. The other companies I looked at had clinics in the Dominican Republic or Costa Rica. Mexico is too dangerous right now so that is not an option in my mind so I have not really looked there. I have heard of places in Isreal, China and Russia too but have been concentrating on Germany because it is where I started. I am consulting with someone who works with a company in Texas and will seek advice from him. I have a lot of research to do before I make any decision.
I don't think we have had any more information from dschroed and I wish we did. You might also check with Nepsis. They are having a pilot study with MS that sounds very promising. If you would like, you may submit any questions you might have concerning what they are doing to the Ask the PhD forum hosted by Dr. Payne this month. This way you can get it first hand from him. Send questions to my e-mail please. Deadline is April 19th.
I am still doing research. I have received some information recently from the German MS society and need to get it interpreted. It seems to be warnings of some sort but you get that where ever you ask. I will share it when I get it interpreted for sure.
Another place I am looking into is Cellmedicine in Costa Rica. They are linked to this site too. There are several posts on Youtube by people getting therapy there and positive posts on this site. The main difference I see is that Germany is one treatment in a weeks time and Costa Rica is several over a 2 to 4 week time period. I am not sure why there is a difference and which could be more effective. I need to find that out too. There is a major cost difference, of course.
I spoke to someone who went to Germany in September of 08 and had exceptional results. I will let you know what I find out and please share if you find out anything too. Thank you
Another place I am looking into is Cellmedicine in Costa Rica. They are linked to this site too. There are several posts on Youtube by people getting therapy there and positive posts on this site. The main difference I see is that Germany is one treatment in a weeks time and Costa Rica is several over a 2 to 4 week time period. I am not sure why there is a difference and which could be more effective. I need to find that out too. There is a major cost difference, of course.
I spoke to someone who went to Germany in September of 08 and had exceptional results. I will let you know what I find out and please share if you find out anything too. Thank you
I will attempt to send you both the files via private messages. They are pretty large so i may need another e-mail address to send them as attachments. I appreciate the help.
The other difference in Costa Rica seems to be the number of injections you get as well as the PT. I am currently going to PT to start to build up strength prior to any treatment I may get so I can hopefully "jump start" the healing process.
The other difference in Costa Rica seems to be the number of injections you get as well as the PT. I am currently going to PT to start to build up strength prior to any treatment I may get so I can hopefully "jump start" the healing process.