Respect for life is exactly the point

[barbara]

Time to start a new thread. My hats off to this writer.


By Ina Hughs
Friday, March 20, 2009
Appearing today in KnoxNews.com

A respect for life is the bottom line in both sides of the debate over President Barack Obama's lifting the ban on federal funding for the use of pre-existing embryonic stem cell lines in medical research.

Those in favor of keeping the ban trumpet their argument by saying the use of embryonic stem cells shows a lack of respect for life. Those who approve embryonic stem-cell research say a respect for life is exactly the point: This kind of research will have a huge impact on sustaining and giving life to people who suffer.

Here's my question: There are at present 600,000 human embryos in storage nationwide which otherwise will be eventually destroyed. Would killing them off show a more admirable respect for life than putting them to good use in research?

Opponents of "Frankenscience" build their case on the adage that it's not nice to fool Mother Nature - that an embryo is the beginning of a human being, and if we use them for research, we are, for all practical purposes, playing God.

But all of medical science is about "fooling" - being smarter than nature and altering its course: outwitting the cancer cells; pushing back time in patients whose hearts have worn out; doctors specializing in problem pregnancies who take over when the stork drops its bundle.

We pray for miracle cures, pay for costly treatments, advertise on TV the latest miracle drug, have fun runs and bake sales to support research - all for the pure sake of "fooling Mother Nature."

Not only do we respect life. If it's the life of a loved one with Parkinson's or Alzheimer's or paralyzed from a spinal injury, I can't imagine turning a moral back on research that could, once again, alter the natural course of things for them.

This month's cover of Outdoor Life magazine has a full-page color photo of a young hunter in full camouflage gear, holding the half torso of a 188-inch antlered buck (his "behemoth trophy," the cutline calls it) which he shot and had stuffed. In telling his story, the hunter said he came across that deer while going after a doe his uncle had wounded.

Ask any hunter, and they will tell you they love animals. They respect them, and they can tell you 50-plus reasons why, besides being a heck of a lot of fun, killing deer is "necessary" in sustaining life.

"Respect for life" is a loaded phrase, and we obviously don't all think it means the same thing.

We admire people who donate organs to science. If a child dies in a tragic accident and the parents decide to let medical science use its skills to transplant a heart or eyes - isn't that morally admirable? To use otherwise doomed embryonic stem cells is not only respecting life, it is recycling it much in the same way. To disallow stem-cell research on embryonic tissue means that nothing comes of this life form. Its life served no purpose.

One of the more compelling arguments against using embryonic stem cells is that, if we give scientists an inch, they will take a mile. Will scientists be given federal funds to create embryos for the express purpose of harvesting stem cells? Will we lose our humanity by creating life in order to destroy it?

Look back in history. Everything from the printing press to in-vitro fertilization was resisted with scary what-ifs.

Good will win out. Yes, there are shady-dealing scientists in the world who abuse knowledge and make unethical decisions. You find those kinds of people in all professions, from clergy to politicians, academicians, journalists, lawyers, teachers - but they are a minority. And we can't let them prohibit us from going forward with ideas that will make this a better world.

 

[Tami03]

Here is my take on embryonic stemcell research.
Common sense!!! An embryo is the first stages of a fetus in essense the first 8 weeks of life. At 18 to 21 days from fertilzation a heart beat is present. Brain waves before that. It is life. Putting these cells into a 'adult' body is scary for this reason. These cells are growing into organs making a body. How chaotic these cells must be. A 2nd trimester fetus CAN survive outside the womb, however a embryo can NOT. The embryo is MEANT to be inside a cavity (Uterus) if these cells aren't in the correct cavity these cells will grow the way they are suppose to into a baby and if they aren't in the correct cavity think what can happen. Tumors of teeth, bone and hair the essence of a life. That is NOT a chance I am willing to make with my child's life.
When there is another safer alternative.

 

[barbara]

Some answers from Obama

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/god-and-country/2009/03/25/reading-the-code-on-obamas-stem-cell-research-answer.html

 

[hlichten]

Here is my take on embryonic stemcell research.
Common sense!!! An embryo is the first stages of a fetus in essense the first 8 weeks of life. At 18 to 21 days from fertilzation a heart beat is present. Brain waves before that. It is life. Putting these cells into a 'adult' body is scary for this reason. These cells are growing into organs making a body. How chaotic these cells must be. A 2nd trimester fetus CAN survive outside the womb, however a embryo can NOT. The embryo is MEANT to be inside a cavity (Uterus) if these cells aren't in the correct cavity these cells will grow the way they are suppose to into a baby and if they aren't in the correct cavity think what can happen. Tumors of teeth, bone and hair the essence of a life. That is NOT a chance I am willing to make with my child's life.
When there is another safer alternative.

You are missing the entire point of such research:
Nobody in the USA is going to put these cells into a human body now.
Nobody is suggesting that you put these cells into your child.
These cells have been released for research, which will consist first of in vitro (test tube) research, followed at some point by animal research.
Only if this is found to be successful over time, after articles have been published, animal trials have been successful and have been peer reviewed would any human trials be considered on a volunteer basis for no-option patients.

Real research does not mean people lining up at clinics and hospitals for injections.

That isn't how real science works.

The "safer alternative" of adult stem cell treatment, specifically autologous treatment may indeed be the way to go when all is said and done. If that is the case, embryonic cell research will likely not be pursued any further, and such research will be shelved.

Real science is not meant to be driven by businessmen, lobbyists, special interests, politics, and drug companies.

It is done by scientists in universities and labs, and has no timetable.

We are waiting for key discoveries to occur, which may or may not occur. Stem cells are not going to be the cure for all illnesses and diseases and impairments.

Meanwhile, nobody is calling for human guinea pigs for embryonic cell trials at this time.

 

[Tami03]

I understand that but there are individuals out there who are having this treatment done and some without knowing all the risks. Plus you know as well as I do that they deem some losses as acceptable so I was just weighing in on the other side of the spectrum. No loss is acceptable in my book. They can research all they want but if the side effects are even slightly a chance of death for my baby who I will loss soon enough it isn't worth the study of it. Why not research the umbilical cord blood that has no side effects than to use these embryos and let these embryos go to people who desperately want a child because that was what they were intended for... life.

 

[hlichten]

I understand that but there are individuals out there who are having this treatment done and some without knowing all the risks. Plus you know as well as I do that they deem some losses as acceptable so I was just weighing in on the other side of the spectrum. No loss is acceptable in my book. They can research all they want but if the side effects are even slightly a chance of death for my baby who I will loss soon enough it isn't worth the study of it. Why not research the umbilical cord blood that has no side effects than to use these embryos and let these embryos go to people who desperately want a child because that was what they were intended for... life.

1.) Anyone getting an "embryonic stem cell treatment" now has made a foolish choice, has possibly been scammed, or, as you said, runs huge risks. We are not prepared to use them now.

2.) This has NOTHING to do with embryonic stem cell research, as released by President Obama. Research means research, NOT treatments, not now. He has not legalized any treatments, which would be much, much later.

3.) You say "Why not research the umbilical cord blood that has no side effects". WE DON'T KNOW THAT. Again, it would take scientific research to prove this. Don't fall prey to everything you read on the web. It isn't all true, just because it appears on a website. Use your best judgment.

4.) You say "use these embryos and let these embryos go to people who desperately want a child because that was what they were intended for... life". SORRY, again, that just can not be done. EVER. The only embryos that will be legal for research are those which are to be discarded. They could only be implanted in the original biological mother of these embryos, or in a woman designated by the original biological mother. In this case, neither is possible. Random embryos can not be given to a random mother for implantation so that a life can occur. Can't happen. Your logic is flawed.

TAMI, HERE IS MY ADVICE TO YOU:

You want what is best for your child, and that is all that should matter to you. The best you can do is to get a safe treatment for your child. Right now, that is going to be a human stem cell treatment, either marrow-based or cord-blood based. What other people are doing in regards to treatment is their decision, and many mistakes are being made now due to the vulnerability of the patient or the patient's families.

Nothing has been totally proven about human autologous or cord-blood treatment at this time, but most of the success has been shown with autologous marrow or marrow matched to the recipient. There are clinical trials headed into later phases, so perhaps soon we will have commercial products available for use, although these likely won't be covered by insurance for many years to come.

EMBRYONIC STEM CELL TREATMENT is not ready to be administered today by any doctor anywhere!!! Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to deceive you. USA research teams will be looking into this over the years and months ahead.

Barbara has lists of clinics around the world. How many of them offer embryonic or fetal treatment now? Extremely few, and these clinics and doctors are among the most suspect. Embryonic or fetal treatment now could lead to tumors or death as you have already suggested.

But....please....do not confuse doctors and clinics offering embryonic or fetal treatment now with embryonic stem cell research!!! One has nothing to do with the other!!!!

And, please.....do not suggest that there "might be a good use" for these embryos. There isn't. As I have clarified, they can't be used to make children.

 

[Tami03]

First off I do use my best judgement and second of all if I beleived EVERYTHING I read than I would not be a member of this forum and thirdly if you thought umbilical cord stemcell treatment was risky why have 4 treatments. Having a postitive attitude and being encouraging to new members and teaching them from our experience is better than calling them fools. Now I am not interested in a debate with you however, I am NOT new to this forum nor the stemcell research arena. I have dealt with a variety of different doctors and have spoken with several from all over the world. Yes this is relatively new however, this is steeped heavily in the moral, ethic and religious debates, not to include the polilical contraversy, however a person's moral compass will help make that decision. Dealing with non FDA procedures, people have to pray that their decisions are the right ones but they still have to sleep at night. My issue with the embroyonic research is simply THIS -- WHY. What is the purpose of research IF these embryos are limited and with the research that has been done has shown higher risks than any other so far. In my opinion --- life is life PERIOD. I say this for one reason when you are asked to terminate your 26 week baby and you have to make that decision, her life is just as important. Other wise research on the people who are terminal with no chance of survival, difference?

 

[Kaci's Mom]

First off I do use my best judgement and second of all if I beleived EVERYTHING I read than I would not be a member of this forum and thirdly if you thought umbilical cord stemcell treatment was risky why have 4 treatments. Having a postitive attitude and being encouraging to new members and teaching them from our experience is better than calling them fools. Now I am not interested in a debate with you however, I am NOT new to this forum nor the stemcell research arena. I have dealt with a variety of different doctors and have spoken with several from all over the world. Yes this is relatively new however, this is steeped heavily in the moral, ethic and religious debates, not to include the polilical contraversy, however a person's moral compass will help make that decision. Dealing with non FDA procedures, people have to pray that their decisions are the right ones but they still have to sleep at night. My issue with the embroyonic research is simply THIS -- WHY. What is the purpose of research IF these embryos are limited and with the research that has been done has shown higher risks than any other so far. In my opinion --- life is life PERIOD. I say this for one reason when you are asked to terminate your 26 week baby and you have to make that decision, her life is just as important. Other wise research on the people who are terminal with no chance of survival, difference?

Kind of sounds like you're trying to debate what he's saying. I noticed your signature is missing- which stated your daughter's FIRST stem cell treatment was unsuccessful. You believed Stem Cell Biotherapies was the greatest place ever until things with Ava took a turn for the worse. You even went as far as to quit this forum for awhile because the forum Founders had "red flagged" them and you BELIEVED they had performed what seemed like a "miracle". So you MUST agree that even umbilical cord stem cells CAN be dangerous? No disrespect to you, I'm very happy to hear your daughter is improving so much from her second treatment.
I'm not trying to start something with you so please don't get defensive. I believe Hlichten is right. Embryonic stem cell research has been limited, since Bush was President, to only a few cell lines ( like 21). Agreed those are unstable. But, without further research into embryonic stem cells, how will scietists ever be able to figure out how to make the other 100 and some work out? Do you realize how many embryos are out there frozen that will NEVER be used and just thrown away? A person doesn't just have one frozen embryo sitting there waiting to be used- there are usually a LOT! If every one used every embryo they had frozen to make a baby there would be so many "Octomom's" out there, plus our population would become out of control! Hlichen is right, that's just NOT realistic. And you can't just go and get someone elses embryo and use it- unless the owner gives it to you.

I DO think there should be more talk and doing of research with the respect of umbilical cord stem cells. At least so there could be some sort of regulation of their safety. And also maybe then we wouldn't have to travel outside of the country every time we needed to get a treatment.

 

[barbara]

Umbilical cord stem cells can be dangerous if not screened properly by the laboratory that processes them. I cannot even say for sure that SCB used umbilical cord stem cells and I doubt Tami or anyone else who went there could verify it either because no certification of purity from a lab has ever been provided. This is truly no fault of the unsuspecting patients who knew no better. In defense of Tami, she would probably rail against SCB, but she cannot due to an agreement she had to make to get a refund from them. The refund made it possible for her to get proper treatment for her daughter. This is how the former CEO of SCB buys the silence of the patients that have been wronged.
The destruction of frozen embryos makes little sense to me when they can be used to possibly give new life to the sick and dying. Research is the only way to find out what outcomes can be realized. Kaci makes another good point in that permission must be granted to use the embryos. This debate will be ongoing in the next few years. I can't see an ending to it anytime soon.

 

[hlichten]

First off I do use my best judgement and second of all if I beleived EVERYTHING I read than I would not be a member of this forum and thirdly if you thought umbilical cord stemcell treatment was risky why have 4 treatments. Having a postitive attitude and being encouraging to new members and teaching them from our experience is better than calling them fools. Now I am not interested in a debate with you however, I am NOT new to this forum nor the stemcell research arena. I have dealt with a variety of different doctors and have spoken with several from all over the world. Yes this is relatively new however, this is steeped heavily in the moral, ethic and religious debates, not to include the polilical contraversy, however a person's moral compass will help make that decision. Dealing with non FDA procedures, people have to pray that their decisions are the right ones but they still have to sleep at night. My issue with the embroyonic research is simply THIS -- WHY. What is the purpose of research IF these embryos are limited and with the research that has been done has shown higher risks than any other so far. In my opinion --- life is life PERIOD. I say this for one reason when you are asked to terminate your 26 week baby and you have to make that decision, her life is just as important. Other wise research on the people who are terminal with no chance of survival, difference?

1.) I never, ever called you, or anyone here a fool. Ever. I am here to be helpful, critical at times, yes. That is my nature, but helpful. You are reading far more into my "tone" than ever intended.

2.) I have had 4 stem cell treatments, ZERO umbilical cord-blood treatments. All my treatments have come from my own cells, no "third-party" cells such as umbilical, placental, and embryonic are. When did I ever say I have had an umbilical cord-blood treatment? I have not.

3.) As for "life is life PERIOD" as you state, we can argue that all day and night and we won't agree. But, you can't take embryos designated for disposal and implant them into a mother who did not provide the egg without the biological mother's consent. That just can not happen, ever. It would be way, way beyond unethical and illegal.

4.) Could you not read from my reply that I cared for and had compassion for your situation?

5.) If you are not interested in debating, don't post. This is a forum which is intended for open discussion, and debate of this type. If we were to meet face to face (which I have no interest in) you would understand that I am not intending anything unkind toward you in my replies. I do disagree with much of what you are posting, and feel that you are incorrectly informed, but, again, that is simply my opinion. You are free to consider my remarks as right or wrong, but don't run me into the ground and tell me that you don't intend to argue with me, because you are.

6.) I suggest that you read my remarks again, and try to put a kind "voice" in your head as you read them. That would be my voice, as I never intended anything other than kindness toward you.

I wish you well.

 

[barbara]

Having had the pleasure of meeting Harv in California several months ago, I can vouch for him as being a very nice person. He even scoped out the area we were both staying prior to my arrival for a vegan restaurant for dinner. Harv is not a vegetarian or a vegan, but like I said he is a nice person who is considerate of other people. That's the one drawback of the internet. You can't tell from body language or tone of voice how a person truly feels.

 

[Kaci's Mom]

Yes I agree with Barbara and Harv, sometimes comments made by others DON'T sound the way they were meant when written. And I hope Tami03 or anyone else took what I said as an attempt to be mean. I'm VERY sorry if that's the immpression you got!

 

[Tami03]

I am very sensitive about this for a multitude of reasons. And I didn't sign my name because my member status should let everyone know who I am. Second of all I am an advocate for life in all forms. Having lose two babies and then being instructed to abort and being adopted and raped several times has made me very sensitive to the respect life issue. SCB is a company that doesn't work. I beleive that this company is a fraud and is a danger to its patients. Someone asked while I researched this procedure early on if embryonic was the only way to save my daughter would I do it. I answered as quickly as I did when I was encouraged to abort Ava that no I couldn't take a life to save one. Regardless if they all are used in research or not, that morally I couldn't KNOWLINGLY destroy a life. And I stand by that, even if Ava should die because of that decision. For me it is simple right or wrong life or death. I have had to make the hard choices and I have to stand by them. So if I sound offended or take a tone incorrectly forgive me because I have had to stand alone alot of the time in the aftermath of my choices. And yes I did leave the forum for a short while in defense of SCB and I have publicly apologized to Barbara on this forum and via the phone for my error in judgement. Life makes us strong or makes us weak and when a person has to make the hard decisions alone than yes they become extra sensitive and touchy about particular issues. So if I have offended anyone than I should leave the forum again to keep everything calm and not rock your boat. Thank you for allowing me to participate Barb, Jeanne. I hope that you all beat this COPD and live a glorious life. Good bye and Good luck
Tami
Ava had treatment in Mexico in 08
Ava had treatment in Peru in 08

 

[barbara]

Tami - This is a forum where EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. I would hope you would not leave the forum for any reason. I for one look forward to hearing about Ava's progress. I think you will notice that both Harv and Kaci's mom did respond that they meant no offense to you or anyone else who may not agree with the topic at hand. We have taken a lot of flak since starting this forum. Some people have been downright vicious in their attacks claiming that stem cell therapy is snake oil medicine and that those that feel otherwise are con artists and scammers. I do not let these comments prevent me from telling my story or continuing with this forum and neither does Jeannine and I hope you will not either. The ideal situation will be one where embryos have very little place in research and I think this will happen. In the meantime, the reality is that embryonic research is taking place and being funded by the federal government here in the U.S.

 

[hlichten]

Tami:

You have offended no one, and have no reason to leave.

I disagreed strongly with a lot of what you posted, and replied as such, and that is all.

I have now posted several times that I wish you well.

I do understand your sensitivities, and fully respect your opinion, even though we are of different minds on this thread.

I firmly believe that disagreement and heated discussion are quite healthy.

Please stick around. The next time either one of us posts on a topic, we are just as likely to agree!

I even send you a wink and a smile!